Hello All,

I have just installed MacTrack yesterday on CactiEZ (the 3.0 included did not work, so downgraded to 2.9 to get the mactrack tab etc.). CentOS version is 6.8.

Tried setting up and have some challenges. I have all 3 devices all shown UP and discovered and no errors. I used information from these to create device groups and I can see that interfaces and vlans are discovered and even IP addresses quantity is shown, but no mac addresses or IP addresses etc are available under mac tracker tabs. I have included detailed screenshots (5 here plus 4 in second post) and based on what I have read here on other posts, my setup and configuration all seems good to me.

Any help will be very greatly appreciated.

Thanks

More screenshots to go with my post.

Thanks

Hello All,

I am still looking for help. I am sure there are thousands of successful users of this great plugin and hopefully some of them are watching these threads.

I am adding another screenshot in this regard. However, I still have no luck capturing mac addresses.

Thanks much.

Ok, I'll try to help. Let's do some debug.
Can you exec from mactrack plugin directory following command:

where <id> is mactrack device index (without square brackets, of course), and show debug output in this topic.

Thanks so much XTech for looking into this for me.

I have limited knowldge of Linux, but trying to issue this command as a root brings me back to root prompt with no output.

I did "which php" and it is /usr/bin/php and then echo$PATH and it includes /usr/bin.

I am using cmd.php poller on Cacti side, located under /var/www/html annd plugins are in this directory.

I am assuming that php is an add on module to httpd / apache, so httpd.conf needs to have somewhere php specified to parse php extension files, but cat /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf | grep php returns empty.

I am now puzzeled as php as used by Cacti is working fine, and mactrack detect and display devices (maybe these items are discovered by SNMP).

Thanks again,

Go to the /var/www/html/plugins/mactrack directory.
There should be a file named mactrack_scanner.php
Exec command from my previous post.

Yes, that is what I had done exactly. Issuing command from within that directory does not result into any output. Nothing runs and it returns back to the prompt.

[[email protected] ~]# cd /var/www/html/plugins/mactrack
[[email protected] mactrack]# ls
database_upgrade.php jquery.js mactrack_ajax.php mactrack.js mactrack_sites.php mactrack_vendormacs.php mactrack_view_ips.php setup.php
docs lib mactrack.css mactrack_macauth.php mactrack_snmp.js mactrack_view_arp.php mactrack_view_macs.php
general_header.php LICENSE mactrack_devices.php mactrack_macwatch.php mactrack_snmp.php mactrack_view_devices.php mactrack_view_sites.php
images mactrack_actions.php mactrack_device_types.php mactrack_resolver.php mactrack.sql mactrack_view_graphs.php poller_mactrack.php
index.php mactrack_ajax_admin.php mactrack_import_ouidb.php mactrack_scanner.php mactrack_utilities.php mactrack_view_interfaces.php README
[[email protected] mactrack]# php mactrack_scanner.php -d -t


[[email protected] mactrack]#

Specifying the path to php does show an error.

[[email protected] mactrack]# php -c /usr/bin/php mactrack_scanner.php -d -t
PHP: syntax error, unexpected '}' in /usr/bin/php on line 1

Warning: strtotime(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected 'America/New_York' for 'EDT/-4.0/DST' instead in /var/www/html/include/global_constants.php on line 165

You shouldn't use "/usr/bin/php -c mactrack_scanner.php", just use "/usr/bin/php mactrack_scanner.php -d -t -id=". And parameter "-id=<device ID from cacti mactrack>" is crucial.

Thanks so much Xtech. Using your guidance, making some slow progress.

Quick question? How do I list host IDs? of course GUI does not show this.

For now, I started with id=1 and went until like 6 and I found all three devices listed using some numbers as below. Adding -t switch results into zero output, so presented here without -t.

[[email protected] mactrack]# /usr/bin/php mactrack_scanner.php -id=2 -d
DEBUG: HOST: 192.168.240.1 is alive, processing has begun.
DEBUG: Scanning function is 'get_generic_wireless_ports'
DEBUG: ifIndexes data collection complete
DEBUG: ifIndexes data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifTypes data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifNames data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifSpeed data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifHighSpeed data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifDuplex data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifDescr data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifMtu data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifPhysAddress data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifAdminStatus data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOperStatus data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifLastChange data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInOctets data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOutOctets data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInNUcastPkts data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOutNUcastPkts data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInUcastPkts data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOutUcastPkts data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInDiscards data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInErrors data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInUnknownProtos data collection complete. '0' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOutDiscards data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifOutErrors data collection complete. '11' rows found!
DEBUG: ifInterfaces assembly complete: 7191
DEBUG: Adding IfInterfaces Records
INFO: HOST: 192.168.240.1, TYPE: Linux AP 4.4.6 #490 SMP Fri Mar 25 05:27, TOTAL PORTS: 9, OPER PORTS: 9
DEBUG: Port number information collected.
DEBUG: No user ports on this network.
[[email protected] mactrack]#





[[email protected] mactrack]# /usr/bin/php mactrack_scanner.php -id=3 -d
DEBUG: HOST: 192.168.240.254 is alive, processing has begun.
DEBUG: Scanning function is 'get_standard_arp_table'
DEBUG: atifIndexes data collection complete
DEBUG: atPhysAddress data collection complete
DEBUG: atNetAddress data collection complete
DEBUG: atPhysAddress MAC Address Conversion Completed
DEBUG: atEntries assembly complete.
DEBUG: HOST: 192.168.240.254, IP address information collection complete


[[email protected] mactrack]# /usr/bin/php mactrack_scanner.php -id=4 -d
DEBUG: HOST: 192.168.240.2 is alive, processing has begun.
DEBUG: Scanning function is 'get_linux_switch_ports'
DEBUG: ifIndexes data collection complete
DEBUG: ifTypes data collection complete.
DEBUG: ifNames data collection complete.
DEBUG: ipAddrTable scanning for link ports data collection complete.
DEBUG: ifInterfaces assembly complete.
INFO: HOST: 192.168.240.2, TYPE: RB250G, TOTAL INTERFACES: 5, OPER INTERFACES: 3
DEBUG: Port number information collected.
DEBUG: No user ports on this network.
[[email protected] mactrack]#

Device ID you can find in browser URL, when you edit mactrack device. For example: http://www.server.ip/cacti/plugins/mactrack/mactrack_devices.php?action=edit&device_id=121.

Your debug output shows a lot of strange things.
Device with id=2 is a some linux based, wireless AP, and scanning function finds in it at least 9 interfaces, but none of them are user ports. This may occur, because they are trunk ports or ignored ports, or function get_generic_wireless_ports don't see them as wireless. You can try a function get_linux_switch_ports for this device.
To understand a problem I want to see output of following command:

If you don't have installed snmpwalk, install it with package snmp-tools, using yum package manager.

Device with id=3 is a Cisco Router, and have no user ports, because router have no switchports.

Device with id=4 is a MikroTik Switch, but you for some unknown reason use scanning function get_linux_switch_ports, although, in my opinion, you should use get_generic_switch_ports or get_generic_dot1q_switch_ports instead.

Great response.

And now I know how can I get device IDs, by simply hovering my mouse over the device name and it shows the URL at the bottom in Edge.

The ID 2 is for a Trendnet Wireless home router, flashed with DD-WRT and setup simply as a Wireless AP (routing / firewaling disabled but with couple of vlans for private and guest use). It has 4 or 5 ports and they are plugged into few things including two printers and a widnows desktop.

The WAP and MikroTik switch both have user ports and user ports listed up. I have however just made the recomemnded changes in device types for both these device types and have waited 22 minutes (normally after any change, scanner should re-run and otherwise also every 10 minutes it runs), but I have not seen any mac addresses being posted.

Defintely something either teribly wrong with my setup, or I should try another version of MacTrack. There was a version 3 that was installed with CactiEZ and I had to unsinstall and replace with 2.9, as version 3 will not display mactrack tab even after you have this turned on under user management.


Here is result of snmpwalk on the DD-WRT AP for interfaces:

[[email protected] ~]# snmpwalk -v2c -c public 192.168.240.1 interfaces
IF-MIB::ifNumber.0 = INTEGER: 11
IF-MIB::ifIndex.1 = INTEGER: 1
IF-MIB::ifIndex.2 = INTEGER: 2
IF-MIB::ifIndex.3 = INTEGER: 3
IF-MIB::ifIndex.4 = INTEGER: 4
IF-MIB::ifIndex.5 = INTEGER: 5
IF-MIB::ifIndex.6 = INTEGER: 6
IF-MIB::ifIndex.7 = INTEGER: 7
IF-MIB::ifIndex.8 = INTEGER: 8
IF-MIB::ifIndex.9 = INTEGER: 9
IF-MIB::ifIndex.10 = INTEGER: 10
IF-MIB::ifIndex.11 = INTEGER: 11
IF-MIB::ifDescr.1 = STRING: br1
IF-MIB::ifDescr.2 = STRING: br0
IF-MIB::ifDescr.3 = STRING: vlan1
IF-MIB::ifDescr.4 = STRING: lo
IF-MIB::ifDescr.5 = STRING: wl0.1
IF-MIB::ifDescr.6 = STRING: vlan10
IF-MIB::ifDescr.7 = STRING: eth0
IF-MIB::ifDescr.8 = STRING: eth1
IF-MIB::ifDescr.9 = STRING: eth2
IF-MIB::ifDescr.10 = STRING: vlan2
IF-MIB::ifDescr.11 = STRING: teql0
IF-MIB::ifType.1 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.2 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.3 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.4 = INTEGER: softwareLoopback(24)
IF-MIB::ifType.5 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.6 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.7 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.8 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.9 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.10 = INTEGER: ethernetCsmacd(6)
IF-MIB::ifType.11 = INTEGER: other(1)
IF-MIB::ifMtu.1 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.2 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.3 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.4 = INTEGER: 0
IF-MIB::ifMtu.5 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.6 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.7 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.8 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.9 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.10 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifMtu.11 = INTEGER: 1500
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.1 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.2 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.3 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.4 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.5 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.6 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.7 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.8 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.9 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.10 = Gauge32: 10000000
IF-MIB::ifSpeed.11 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.1 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:e1
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.2 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:e1
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.3 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:df
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.4 = STRING:
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.5 = STRING: da:eb:97:ec:b1:e2
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.6 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:df
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.7 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:df
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.8 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:e1
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.9 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:e4
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.10 = STRING: d8:eb:97:ec:b1:df
IF-MIB::ifPhysAddress.11 = STRING:
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.1 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.2 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.3 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.4 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.5 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.6 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.7 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.8 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.9 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.10 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifAdminStatus.11 = INTEGER: down(2)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.1 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.2 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.3 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.4 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.5 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.6 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.7 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.8 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.9 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.10 = INTEGER: up(1)
IF-MIB::ifOperStatus.11 = INTEGER: down(2)
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.1 = Counter32: 7169394
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.2 = Counter32: 198350345
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.3 = Counter32: 3262975947
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.4 = Counter32: 87436
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.5 = Counter32: 6615133
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.6 = Counter32: 20413029
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.7 = Counter32: 3563415784
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.8 = Counter32: 1570785559
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.9 = Counter32: 1748728317
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInOctets.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.1 = Counter32: 143783
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.2 = Counter32: 2319712
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.3 = Counter32: 207778004
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.4 = Counter32: 875
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.5 = Counter32: 29467
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.6 = Counter32: 172038
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.7 = Counter32: 207950121
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.8 = Counter32: 103941015
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.9 = Counter32: 5560349
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInUcastPkts.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.1 = Counter32: 125
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.2 = Counter32: 91878
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.3 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.4 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.5 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.6 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.7 = Counter32: 1
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.8 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.9 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInDiscards.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.1 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.2 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.3 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.4 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.5 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.6 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.7 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.8 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.9 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifInErrors.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.1 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.2 = Counter32: 164476323
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.3 = Counter32: 2862470504
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.4 = Counter32: 87436
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.5 = Counter32: 20147908
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.6 = Counter32: 6612060
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.7 = Counter32: 3376619872
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.8 = Counter32: 2198049144
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.9 = Counter32: 1921980368
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.10 = Counter32: 63354817
IF-MIB::ifOutOctets.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.1 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.2 = Counter32: 1660690
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.3 = Counter32: 110495829
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.4 = Counter32: 875
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.5 = Counter32: 129167
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.6 = Counter32: 29451
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.7 = Counter32: 111045528
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.8 = Counter32: 197941318
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.9 = Counter32: 6142876
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.10 = Counter32: 520239
IF-MIB::ifOutUcastPkts.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.1 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.2 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.3 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.4 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.5 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.6 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.7 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.8 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.9 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutDiscards.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.1 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.2 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.3 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.4 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.5 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.6 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.7 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.8 = Counter32: 3052
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.9 = Counter32: 48
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.10 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutErrors.11 = Counter32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.1 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.2 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.3 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.4 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.5 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.6 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.7 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.8 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.9 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.10 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifOutQLen.11 = Gauge32: 0
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.1 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.2 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.3 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.4 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.5 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.6 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.7 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.8 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.9 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.10 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
IF-MIB::ifSpecific.11 = OID: SNMPv2-SMI::zeroDotZero
[[email protected] ~]#

There are nothing wrong in your setup - Mactrack v 2.9 usually works good enough, and as I can see, most of Mactrack functionality works in your setup. But 'cause you use some not very obeying SNMP standards hardware/firmware (DD-WRT, Mikrotik) - it's hard to find appropriate Mactrack scanning function. There are two ways to solve - by trial and error - trying all of scanning functions sequentially, with minimal chance of success, or by looking in scanning functions sources and learning snmpwalk dumps.

The attached dump looks normal, but now required more dumps of other snmp branches. It will take a lot of time and forum space for solving. May be we should go pmail/mail, or can I get a user shell access to your Cacti box (notify me by pmail if this aceptable)?

ADD: I did some investigations and found that DD-WRT have no SNMP access to it's MAC database (no SNMP BRIDGE-MIB support), so you definitely can't get MAC addresses through SNMP from your AP. So, Mikrotik switch is the only SNMP BRIDGE-MIB capable device in your network. We should concentrate further efforts on it.

Perfect. I think your diagnosis is correct. I am working out of town for until tomorrow and I have a spare older Cisco switch at work that I will like to test with. I will also be able to provide you access to my Cacti box. I don't have remote access to my home network, so cannot do it until I get home after setting up dynamic DNS.

Just in case, MT switch only supports SNMPv1.

Hi XTech,

Sorry I got involved in moving the shop two weeks in advance of the planned date, so I could not get back on this. I have now used a Cisco 2975 POE switch and I have removed the DD WRT AP and MT Switch to simplify the setup. The cisco router 860 is detected fine and is up. However the stock 2975 with just the public RO community and telnet enabled, switch remains unknow and not detected under device. I believe my set up and config is good.

I have opened access to the cacti box thru the firewall and I can PM you the details if you have some time.

Please let me know and I will be grateful.

Ok. Let's do it. PM to me details, and what exactly you expect to see in cacti's mactrack. The Layer2 connection schematics will be useful too.